would the allies have won ww2 without america

The Joint Chiefs of Staff anticipated trouble with Churchill. FranceWhich countries have won the most battles? I already posted a similar thread about US involvement in WWI. This was the final blow to Japanese war effort and broke the camels back, by the way. The German Army was practically at the gates of Moscow in late 1941. What would have happened if the Allies lost ww1? On December 7, 1941, the U.S. naval base Pearl Harbor was the scene of a devastating surprise attack by Japanese forces that would push the U.S. into entering WWII. Prev 1 2 3 Jul 28, 2022 1 #41 Garrison Donor Tiredworker said: without the US sending in Millions of troops and supplying material I dont see an Entente victory. Web1.7K views, 156 likes, 1 loves, 4 comments, 22 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Dark Documentaries: Japan's Most Desperate WW2 Attempt to Destroy the US Air Forces You are using an out of date browser. Perhaps my original question should have been "What would have happened in WWII if there had been no Spam?". But we must also note that Lend Lease started without US joining the war, on FDRs initiative, andit would be there until the end of the war even if US did not join the war. When the war ended, almost 33 percent of all the Red Army's vehicles had been provided through Lend-Lease. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The war would have had a very different outcome, which could have led to a completely different world today. And Soviet forces would have been much more poorly coordinated with a constant lack of radio equipment. It may not display this or other websites correctly. More than 20,000 Katyusha mobile multiple-rocket launchers were mounted on the chassis of American Studebaker trucks. Thousands of kilometers of advance, for nothing, practically. Germanys resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 became the primary motivation behind Wilsons decision to lead the United States into World War I. If we consider Lend Lease never happened, these resources would need to be spent by USSR, and hence hamper war machinery production. Roosevelt had caved in to Churchills delaying tactics on the invasion before, and now all concerned, from Hopkins to Marshall to Leahy, were worried it might happen again. This series of articles represents an attempt to summarize the top mistakes and omissions that Germany made during the most terrible of all wars in human history. Lend-Lease also sent aviation fuel equivalent to 57 percent of what the Soviet Union itself produced. The highlight of the event was the lowering of the captured German standards, which were flung down in front of Lenin's Tomb to be trampled by Soviet marshals riding white horses. We would have lost North Africa and the far east. By the time lead-lease had produced any major change in the situation the decision to invade Russia and thus lose the war had already been taken in Berlin. Copyright 2023 Center for the National Interest All Rights Reserved. This might have led to the curious prospect of Nazi Germany, France and Britain fighting on the same side, however briefly, in a war against the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, British Lend-Lease tanks helped the Red Army to restock its tank units until domestic production could catch up and are estimated to have comprised about 10 per cent of the tanks defending Moscow in NovemberDecember 1941. But it would also take longer and cost more loss of lives. But we have much to learn from that achievement as we face our troubles today. The major effects would have been on the US. How behind Japan was in regard to war production and technology, we see in 1939 in Khalkin Gol, where Zhukov had devastated a sizable Japanese army during the course of ~4 months. But when World War II has considered it is really Germany and Japan against most of the world. The program sent nearly 2,000 locomotives and innumerable boxcars to the Soviet Union. By the onset of the great depression, Americans no longer cared to talk or think about the great war; even veterans felt that way. 3 US as the major part of landings in Northern Africa, Italy and Europe. Without the American entry into World War II, its possible Japan would have consolidated its position of supremacy in East Asia and that the war in Europe could have dragged on for far longer than it did. Victory for the Allies was never guaranteed, and historians agree there were countless ways Germany could have won the war. Would The Allies Have Won Ww2 Without Russia? WebIn 1941-2 we started to lose shipping to U boats faster than we could build them so we would eventually have brought to starvation without the US Liberty ships. Im not sure if Germany would have won but they might have ended up with more favorable terms or even just went back to their original borders. Individual Americans supported one side or the other, although the majority were sympathetic to the Allies. Without U.S. entry, there would have no Versailles Treaty, termed a diktat by Hitler, who used it to arouse Germany against the Weimar Republic and Wilsons League of Nations. "If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war," he wrote in his memoirs. Almost all of the 23 victims of the attack on Friday WebAmerica's noteable allies in World War II were the USSR, Great Britain (and all her commonwealths, including New Zealand, Canada, Australia, etc. Defeat never came down to one battle or one campaign. WebWould Russia have won ww2 without the US? An estimated 25 million Soviet citizens perished in the titanic conflict with Nazi Germany between June 1941 and May 1945. Could we really have set up the production of our tanks without American steel? In the Western popular imagination -- particularly the American one -- World War II is a conflict we won. Instead, Hitler strong-armed Hocha to sign a decree authorizing the entry of German troops into his nation effectively ending Czech independence. One look at the map of southern Europe easily tells even people with non-military education that there is nothing soft about that location at all Italy is hilly, rough terrain, and where Italy connects to Europe is even worse impassable Alps totally clog the north, and beyond Alps there are many more difficult obstacles like Black Forest, or Yugoslavian hilly countryside. Historically 21st Army Group had the English Channel/North Sea on one flank and the Americans on the other flank. Malyshev encouraged the use of stamped parts and a cast turret in order to cut corners, accepting a certain temporary reduction in quality in return for much greater output of tanks. The fact that the US never hit production capacity in ww2 is just insane. We'd really have had to fight them on the beaches & landing grounds, and the western front would have had to have been opened from Ireland. On April 23, 1947, it was forced to make an emergency landing with 36 people on board near the village of Volochanka on the Taimyr Peninsula. Khalkin Gol suggests us they wouldnt be able to. Had Germany been on an actual wartime economy from 1939 things could have been vastly different. JavaScript is disabled. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Geographic feasibility. The loss of the Ukraine and other occupied areas. The entry of the United States was the turning point of the war, because it made the eventual defeat of Germany possible. By doing so it practically ensured defeat. Nikita Khruschev, who later became Soviet Premier, was aware of this and noted in his memoirs: "How could we have advanced from Stalingrad and Kursk on to Berlin without American aid and foodstuffs? There is one World War II historian, John Lukacs, who has said that all three major allies were needed to beat Hitler. During World War I not to mention wars in European wars through the ages Germany didn't really fight alone. So, until 1944 summer, Soviets were practically alone in Europe. 2 US taking on Japan and preventing them from attacking anyone else. We cannot measure the distance of the Soviet economy from the point of collapse in 1942, but it seems beyond doubt that collapse was near. "I knew that its place was in a museum," Vyacheslav Filippov, a colonel in the Russian Air Force reserve who has written extensively about the Lend-Lease program's Siberian connection, told RFE/RL at the time. Then there was the fact that its Axis partner, Imperial Japan, didn't join in fighting the Soviet Union. There would have been effects life in britain and russia would have been less plesent and food less plentiful. And how much steel! 21st Army Group could advance from Venice/Trieste to Vienna and Prague, but there's no one on their flanks. By WebAnd without U.S. supplies, the Soviet war effort would have been massively diminished. The Allies likely would have followed suit by making peace with Nazi Germany, too, thus ending World War II after a mere two weeks of fighting. This would have slowed the growth of US armed forces once the entered the war in december 41 and probebly delayed overlord untill 1945. Archived post. That proved to be fairly well matched against Russia, France, and Great Britain at least in the early stages of the war. I am not one of those Americans who enthusiastically embrace the "chestnuts out of the fire" myth. Copyright 2023 Center for the National Interest All Rights Reserved. Which could be easily defended by much fewer divisions than the number of divisions it would need to attack. This prompted Germany to declare war on the United States, which, in turn, led to the United States to declare war on Germany on December 11, 1941. Robert Coalson is a senior correspondent for RFE/RLwho covers Russia, the Balkans, and Eastern Europe. How many would you like? During the Spanish Civil War, which has been called a dress rehearsal for the Second World War, Germany's Luftwaffe perfected its strategy of using dive bombers and close-support attack aircraft. I think the USSR could have beat Germany even without american aid, aldo I wouldn't be surprised if one of the three mayor Soviet cities on the frontline had fallen, probably Stalingrad. If in a worse scenario the Soviets would have lost Leningrad or the Kavkaz oil fields, or maybe even Moscow, they would just move their government, army, factories and supplies to Siberia. On the map below, the line I've drawn from Central Austria, up around Prague, down towards Budapest, and back to Trieste is about 700 miles. Without Lend-Lease it would have been nearer. Opposing camps of historians generally agree on that, but little else when it comes to This article examines the claim made by Soviet historiography, and it comes to the conclusion that both Western supplies and military intervention were far more helpful than claimed by the Soviets. They're exposed to a German counter attack eastward from Munich or westward from Budapest, maybe both at the same time. Various French Kings conducted some raids, the Spanish planned to use its Armada, the Dutch managed to at least burn some English warships in the Thames but even Napoleon never dared mount what would have been a futile invasion. WebIn 1963, KGB monitoring recorded Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov saying: "People say that the allies didn't help us. The Short History Of The Great Patriotic War, also from 1948, acknowledged the Lend-Lease shipments, but concluded: "Overall this assistance was not significant enough to in any way exert a decisive influence over the course of the Great Patriotic War. After the loss of aluminum sources in the Ukraine, 80 per cent of the aluminum used in the T-34s diesel tank engine came from Lend-Lease deliveries; without Lend-Lease, there would have been significantly fewer T-34s.84. A major question, a major discussion topic. Italy was a reliable partner but its army was neither prepared nor even eager for war. But right before the Normandy landings, this region (France, Atlantic Wall) was still considered a holiday region by German army, and sons, relatives of notables, party figures were sent there rather than Eastern Front as one old BBC documentary so bluntly put it. WebOf course, the easiest way Germany could have won World War II was by avoiding a fight with Britain, France, and the United States of America. U.S. Neutrality The United States remained neutral at the beginning of the war. WebThe war in Europe was not just won with Soviet blood. They did not have the important critical resources, minerals needed for war production, hampering their already technologically backward equipment. Instead of the four Allied powers the United States, Great Britain, France, and the Soviet Union then standing together in a final Allied Victory Parade in a defeated Berlin in September 1944, the Germans could have celebrated the defeat of the British, marching through London and Moscow as they did Paris. WebThis June, seventy-five years will have passed since the largest invasion fleet in the history of warfare landed on five beachheads in Normandy, France.On Tuesday, 6 June 1944, D-day kicked off the Allied operation to liberate Western Europe from Nazi control. While the United States quickly transitioned to a wartime economy that had companies like IBM making rifles instead of typewriters and GM making tanks instead of cars; Germany was producing consumer goods all the way until 1942 when Albert Speer took over as Minister of Armaments. What role did the United States play in World War I? Many contributed to relief efforts; others volunteered as ambulance drivers or nurses, or even as pilots and soldiers. But without the Allies in his back, Hitler would have sent all his 4, issues 17-20), Captain America awakens from suspended animation in 1964 to find thatdue to a A wild card is whether the 1918 flu epidemic would have played out differently. The lessons from the First World War should have been enough for Hitler and the German high command, but the decision to invade the Soviet Union in June 1941 when the British were still undefeated was a colossal blunder. However it doesnt seem to be critical to the wars result. We gave the British dozens of surplus destroyers. WebIf the US continued to send supplies to the Allies, then the Allies probably win, nothing else appearing. The British didn't have enough troops? This abrupt reversal in policy ended up triggering a world war which would cost over fifty million lives. Across Northern France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and into Northern Germany, 21st Army Group advanced on a front about 75 miles wide. The Moscow Victory Parade on June 24, 1945, involved some 40,000 Red Army soldiers and nearly 1,900 military vehicles. It was really the only time Nazi Germany had actually declared war on an enemy, and it needed not to have happened. Therefore, the prospects for an Allied victory after the Fall of France without the US are indeed very grim. Especially considering that the route from NW China/Korea to Soviet heartland passes through never ending Central Asian steppes. Had Hitlers claims against Poland been negotiated peacefully, not only would he have succeeded in averting the outbreak of war with Poland and the Western Allies, but he would not have felt the need to sign the Hitler-Stalin Pact of August 1939 carving up eastern Europe between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. The Lend-Lease act was enacted in March 1941 and authorized the United States to provide weapons, provisions, and raw materials to strategically important countries fighting Germany and Japan -- primarily, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, and China. Russian Federation Soviet Union The thing that is certain that war would last even longer in that case, and cost many more lives. By June 1944, Soviets were already positioning for their drive into Germany, as can be seen from the state of Eastern Front at that date: Just a month after Normandy, Red Army was already pushing into Germany. Here are some actions that Germany might have taken to achieve its territorial objectives without fighting the Western Powers. However, I have serious doubts that the Germans would have been able to win the war had the USA stay neutral. This Douglas is the only Lend-Lease aircraft that remains in Russia.". "It was not just some piece of scrap metal. He believed that a war with Russia would lead to the downfall of both empires.. It may not display this or other websites correctly. WebBy the time the allies were pushing through Europe, the US had collected many victories in the pacific, the arena of carriers and planes. Without US help Britain would Normandy and the Bocage around it could be considered bloody battles, with Allies moving inch by inch. Of course, we are not taking tactical considerations into account. However, the real significance of Lend-Lease for the Soviet war effort was that it covered the "sensitive points" of Soviet production -- gasoline, explosives, aluminum, nonferrous metals, radio communications, and so on, says historian Boris Sokolov. Germany had the military potential to defeat France and could have likely forced Britain to make peace, but with a Navy less than one-sixth the size of Britains, it had no means of attacking U.S. territory, let alone defeating the U.S. military. Therefore when we look at the presence of US forces in Western Front, we see them delayed by Churchill to almost until the end of the war, and wasted in much bloody, irrelevant and peripheral battles in Italy. With Great Britain in the war it meant Germany was dragged into various side campaigns from Greece to North Africa. The Allies alone could not possibly have defeated Germany. The United States was never within striking distance of Germany and it should have been obvious that Japan couldn't mount an invasion of the American west coast. Additionally, without bombing, and the need to maintain a large enough army to fight on several fronts, there would have been less need to use forced labor in the factories, thus boosting production. As noted, it dragged the Germans into campaigns that were unnecessary including in Greece and North Africa, and then when Benito Mussolini's government was toppled Germany was forced to occupy its former ally. The United States is a country of machines. But it cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war. Sorry Soviet and British Nationalists: the USA economic, industrial and operational/tactical contributions were key: You know, that's the crux of the problem in all these discussions: practically. By the same token, the extraordinary pitch of mobilization achieved by the Soviet Union in 1942 and early 1943 was not sustainable. However, the overall 71 exchange ratio between Soviet and German tank losses was inconsistent with the Red Army gaining any kind of superiority over the Wehrmachts panzer forces. With farm labour cut to the bone, to permit the maximum concentration of manpower on the Red Army and on armaments production, only those who worked received adequate rations. Without US, Britain would still be able to prevent Germany from taking off to the seas. Its merely that their Prime Minister is balking, Stimson wrote in his diary. It was a great symbol of prestige for the resurgent Kriegsmarine, but the money and material could have been utilized in a larger U-Boat force. JavaScript is disabled. We had lost our grain-producing areas". On December 8, 1941, one day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States declared war on Japan. Britain still would have prevailed. Peter Suciu is a Michigan-based writer who has contributed to more than four dozen magazines, newspapers and websites. After all the euphoria in London and Paris over the avoidance of war with Germany in 1938 with the Munich Agreement, which enshrined the Wilsonian principle of self-determination to allow the 3.5 million Germans in the Sudetenland to unite with Germany, Chamberlain viewed Hitlers violation of the pact as a personal insult and breach of honor. This would have reduced investment in the US arms industry and thus slowed it growth or even caused plants to close. And the US's wartime economy still had room to spool up even more. Stalin was of the same opinion but naturally did not admit it publicly. Defeat never came down to one battle or one campaign. A Soviet report by Politburo member Nikolai Voznesensky in 1948 asserted that the United States, described as "the head of the antidemocratic camp and the warrior of imperialist expansion around the world," contributed materiel during the war that amounted to just 4.8 percent of the Soviet Union's own wartime production. While the Japanese did draw away British resources to the Far East, which included the Commonwealth forces of Australia and New Zealand, as well as the Indian Army, this really didn't benefit the Germans all that much. Britain, and probably France as well, would have likely pressured the Poles to accept such a reasonable compromise proposal and informed them they would not support Poland militarily if Poland rejected it just as they told Czech leaders after Munich. Rather, the consequence of lend-lease was to virtually bankrupt this country and lead to the collapse in our manufacturing base, whilst the Marshall Plan created one of the strongest economies in the world - who got the short straw? The lend-lease deal wasn't signed untill september 1940 and therefore didn't affect the decision to "pospone" sealion. By this time US aid was already flowing in, and the victory came afterSecond Battle of El Alamein, after US themselves joined. Does a neutral US still provide lend lease aid to both Britain and the USSR? The Germans were not equipped or experienced in conducting a sea-borne invasion, and even if the RAF had been neutralised their high command was scared stiff of the overwhelming naval advantage that the Royal Navy had in home waters. Siberia, is not even an option to consider. "In a hypothetical battle one-on-one between the U.S.S.R and Germany, without the help of Lend-Lease and without the diversion of significant forces of the Luftwaffe and the German Navy and the diversion of more than one-quarter of its land forces in the fight against Britain and the United States, Stalin could hardly have beaten Hitler," Sokolov wrote in an essay for RFE/RL's Russian Service. WebThe Big Three. War of 1812. It would have been a negotiated armistice or a German victory. We all know how the war turned outwith an overwhelming Soviet-Western Allied victory over Nazi Germany ending with the destruction of Germany and the death by starvation of millions of its citizens. If Hitler had accepted Czech President Emil Hachas request to make the Czech Republic a German protectorate without actually occupying it with German forces, then he would not have been in violation of the Munich Pact. The same applies to their contribution in forcing the Germans to leave most heavy artillery in the Reich as anti-aircraft weapons, preventing them from being used as anti-tank weapons in the East. Though, it is questionable how much of the soldiers from Germanys privileged classes would be shipped to Eastern Front in that case. The Soviets fought with American fighters, American tanks, 400,000 So in World War One, I think fresh American troops helped change the outcome. Throw in the fact that Germany's victories in Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France didn't really help this tied down vast amounts of men and material that could have been better used on the frontlines in the Soviet Union. These territorial claims included the entire Istrian peninsula and northern Dalmatian coast and adjacent islands in the Adriatic Sea as well as a protectorate over Albania, all of which ended up being annexedfollowing the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941. Plausibility check: could a better handled Italy have become France's partner in enforcing the Versailles treaty? What were the 3 reasons the US entered WW1? The Lend-Lease program also sent tons of factory equipment and machine tools to the Soviet Union, including more than 38,000 lathes and other metal-working tools. Should we condemn the French Revolution? Perhaps if it hadn't wasted time in securing Greece after Italy bungled that invasion, Germany could have launched the invasion of the Soviet Union a bit earlier. The body of the captain, Maksim Tyurikov, was found by local hunters about 120 kilometers from the wreck in 1953. Photo: Museum of the U.S. Air Force (Courtesy Photo). Though this indeed tied some German forces, the forces were not anything which could be compared to what was being thrown to Eastern Front, with one notable panzer group being stationed ner Pas de Calais (Hitlers folly), and most of the preparation taking the form of elaborate fortifications that were called Atlantic Wall prepared mainly by Rommel. These freed up Soviet resources to concentrate on combat vehicle production. In addition, almost half of all the rails used by the Soviet Union during the war came through Lend-Lease. This proved crucial in the Blitzkrieg against the Low Countries and France. WebWithout US forces supporting invasions of Normandy, Morocco, and Italy, the British Empire would have to recruit the missing American soldiers, but with American lend On September 2, 1939, the day after Germany invaded Poland, Hitler offered to withdraw from all of Poland except for the Polish Corridor, which constituted scarcely more than 4 percent of Polish territory, in order to avoid war with Britain and France. Again I asked myself the question would the Allied powers had won without US involvement. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. WWII- Whenever driven from Libya in defeat, would Axis forces have always retreated to & occupied Tunisia? September 1 marked the eightieth anniversary of the outbreak of World War II, which cost the lives of an estimated fifty to sixty million people and was the most terrible war in world history. And now they are saying that we had plenty of everything on our own.". The lack of lend-lease would have made life very difficult, and it would have taken much longer to assemble any kind of invasion force - possibly allowing Germany to develop atomic weapons and extended range missiles. Lend-Lease trucks and jeeps put the Russian Army on wheels for the first time ever while US food (including, famously, spam)kept the Russian population going. At the end of the war, the disparage was far greater Soviets ran over all the elite crack troops Japanese crammed into Manchuria and trusted quite a lot, and they ran over them in justonemonth. I suspect the worse that would have happened immediately would have been an emergency relocation to Canada by the government if a Nazi invasion had taken place and been successful. Germany's defeat came about from a number of much larger factors. As history tells us, Operation Overlord was a success as Allied forces managed to breach Hitlers WebMost Russians believe the Soviet military would have been able to win World War II without the efforts of the U.S. or its allies, a new poll finds. History Forum for World History - Historical Events, Historians, Archaeology, Ancient History, Modern History, Human History, History Books, Military History. No doubt the historical conditions of America's economic surge during World War II were singular. "During World War II, only the supplies brought in by Lend-Lease prevented the paralysis of rail transport in the Soviet Union.". In other words, Lend-Lease was stabilizing. When World War II started, America was isolationist and the Soviet Union collaborationist.

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